Judaism and Circumcision - Interesting Article

ffetish

Bellow is an interesting article on subject of Judaism and Circumcision. This is a touchy issue and any effort to out law the practice will have to deal with the predictable attacks of "anti-Semitism". One obvious compromise it seems to me is to not perform the procedure on infants as the Torah dictates but wait until a boy has a bar mitzvah, even then this would be tricky because a lot of pressure will be applied but it would be a big step forward. Also I think its important to point out that although this argument gets thrown around a lot when it relates to Jews it almost never gets mentioned in regards to Muslims, which is telling that this has more to do with politics than religion.

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intact

I didn't read this yet, but I searched for the page "milah" and it took a commenter to point out that the original (Torah/Old Testament) circumcision was a mere bloodletting that didn't cut away more than the acroposthion of the penis.

Centuries later, the "brit periah" was instituted, not by the word of God, but by the Jewish high priests. This was an effort to prevent dispersed Jewish men in Greece from tugging their foreskin out to pass for uncircumcised Greeks when they entered the gymnasiums -- where men worked out nude.

That is the circumcision practiced today. And the reason for its existence has been null and void for hundreds of years.

Squirrel

The practice and timing of religious circumcision within Islamic cultures varies considerably with some doing it quite late on (altho' still before the child can legally consent).

This belief that some deity said that something has to be done and so therefore it must be done doesn't hold water at all. There are very many things in the Torah (and by extension also in the Christian Old Testament and the Q'ran) that YHWH has supposedly ordered to be done that people choose not to do now because it's unethical or just crazy.

For example: If you have a rebellious son who won't listen to you, you should taken him before the elders and they will arrange for a mob to stone him to death. Not many ppl would say that this is something that should still be done and even less would carry it out but then they say that they have to mutilate their baby's penis because some wizard who lives in the sky ordered it a few thousand years ago.

If someone invented circumcision today, most people would consider them to be a nutter or a sadist, and they would be arrested if they ever did it. If you want to tattoo your baby son's penis you will be prevented from doing so in most countries but cutting of his most sensitive part without using anasthaesia is somehow acceptable. It's just bizarre.

zigzag

I agree with everything said I too think man made religion rituals shouldn't be allowed its bogus if I create a religion that requires pinkies cut off would it be allowed? Freedom of religion should stop at body parts being cut off its insane!

Quite honestly one of the reasons religious circumcision is accepted because it's so accepted in America. As mentioned historically jews were kind of afraid because much of the world didn't circumcise and they were prosecuted for it. See what romans, nazis, Russians and other nations did to them. You could point them out by their circumcision status.

I read somewhere that jews loved when circumcision became so rampant in America because they could practice circumcision without judgment. That's why when circumcision is being so questioned now they are afraid. Someone told me 30% of doctors in america are jewish not sure how accurate it is. Also that jews control much of Hollywood and US media again could be conspiracy theories.

But it makes sense on why circumcision is so pushed in america and elsewhere by US doctors and US media helps with stigmatize of uncircumcised guys. Because jews don't want america specifically to stop circumcising because then they'll be judged again. When countries in Europe try to ban circumcision who right away jumps to stop it? Israel, jews and america in the name of religious freedom complete bullshit. Aztecs did human sacrifice for religion should we allow that? All religious rituals including circumcision should be banned.

Muslims are not as loud as jews and quite frankly islam does other things you can focus on that are just as bad. Sharia law, jihad, treatment of women, hijabs, etc. that circumcision is just added to the list.

Other reason to justify circumcision are bullshit. All possible medical benefits are extremely small and can be easily fixed with condoms, antibiotics, and proper hygiene. Statistically a very small percentage of men will ever need legit circumcision. Doctors especially American don't know anything about foreskin care and are trigger happy to recommend circumcision.

For hiv if africans are stupid enough not to use condoms or to sleep with someone without knowing their hiv staus that's their problem. Same goes with gays and drug users. It's ludicrous that circumcision can be encouraged by the WHO or anyone else to curb hiv when they are other cheaper and safer methods like condoms and antirerival medicine to use. Circumcision is a surgery looking for a disease constantly. Either way Circumcision is not medically required or mandatory recommended by any health organization and should only be done when there is a legit medical reason not for preventing bs pro circumcision people love to use as a excuse. We don't cut off appendix from babies for prevention why is circumcision allowed on defenseless babies?

The answer will always be circumcised men trying to justify their circumcision. Using bullshit like man made religion, right of passage crap which proves we're no better then animals, or because men for some reason wants their sons to match them. Small potential medical benefits is just a convenience. Women are brainwashed to go along culturally and this is where propaganda and stigmatization can be used as well. Regardless circumcision won't go away in our lifetime and can't tell what will happen in the future.

Sorry for my rant and if someone chooses circumcision or you had a legit medical reason I have no issues with that. But for it to be pushed for bullshit reasons on babies and children that's just sick.

ffetish

zigzag wrote
I agree with everything said I too think man made religion rituals shouldn't be allowed its bogus if I create a religion that requires pinkies cut off would it be allowed? Freedom of religion should stop at body parts being cut off its insane!

Quite honestly one of the reasons religious circumcision is accepted because it's so accepted in America. As mentioned historically jews were kind of afraid because much of the world didn't circumcise and they were prosecuted for it. See what romans, nazis, Russians and other nations did to them. You could point them out by their circumcision status.

I read somewhere that jews loved when circumcision became so rampant in America because they could practice circumcision without judgment. That's why when circumcision is being so questioned now they are afraid. Someone told me 30% of doctors in america are jewish not sure how accurate it is. Also that jews control much of Hollywood and US media again could be conspiracy theories.

But it makes sense on why circumcision is so pushed in america and elsewhere by US doctors and US media helps with stigmatize of uncircumcised guys. Because jews don't want america specifically to stop circumcising because then they'll be judged again. When countries in Europe try to ban circumcision who right away jumps to stop it? Israel, jews and america in the name of religious freedom complete bullshit. Aztecs did human sacrifice for religion should we allow that? All religious rituals including circumcision should be banned.

Muslims are not as loud as jews and quite frankly islam does other things you can focus on that are just as bad. Sharia law, jihad, treatment of women, hijabs, etc. that circumcision is just added to the list.

Other reason to justify circumcision are bullshit. All possible medical benefits are extremely small and can be easily fixed with condoms, antibiotics, and proper hygiene. Statistically a very small percentage of men will ever need legit circumcision. Doctors especially American don't know anything about foreskin care and are trigger happy to recommend circumcision.

For hiv if africans are stupid enough not to use condoms or to sleep with someone without knowing their hiv staus that's their problem. Same goes with gays and drug users. It's ludicrous that circumcision can be encouraged by the WHO or anyone else to curb hiv when they are other cheaper and safer methods like condoms and antirerival medicine to use. Circumcision is a surgery looking for a disease constantly. Either way Circumcision is not medically required or mandatory recommended by any health organization and should only be done when there is a legit medical reason not for preventing bs pro circumcision people love to use as a excuse. We don't cut off appendix from babies for prevention why is circumcision allowed on defenseless babies?

The answer will always be circumcised men trying to justify their circumcision. Using bullshit like man made religion, right of passage crap which proves we're no better then animals, or because men for some reason wants their sons to match them. Small potential medical benefits is just a convenience. Women are brainwashed to go along culturally and this is where propaganda and stigmatization can be used as well. Regardless circumcision won't go away in our lifetime and can't tell what will happen in the future.

Sorry for my rant and if someone chooses circumcision or you had a legit medical reason I have no issues with that. But for it to be pushed for bullshit reasons on babies and children that's just sick.

Just a few points. I would be very careful about saying things like "Jews control the media and Hollywood", for one thing it simply isn't true, Jews are very slightly overrepresented in the entertainment industry (or at least were at one point), but this is a major anti-sematic talking point. I think the real issue in the U.S. has much more to do with the U.S. support for Zionism and Zionism's support of Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews, which has created a climate where anything critical of Israel or the religious practices of Judaism gets labeled as anti-sematic. Jewish people tend to be more secular than most other groups in the United States and this was even more the case before the holocaust and the occupation of Palestine. Coming from a background of Atheist Jews I think its critically important that people understand the difference between Judaism as a religion and Judaism as an ethnicity as these two things often get conflated.

As to the rest of your comments I obviously agree that this practice is barbaric / inhuman and religious belief cannot be used as a justification to mutilate someone's body without consent. The reason I posted this article is because this is obvious point of attack that would be used against any attempt to outlaw the practice and I think its important not to fall into the trap that I can already see being laid of raising the red herring of anti-Semitism.

The stuff going on in Africa is insane. Especially on a continent with so much female genital mutilation (which is many orders of magnitude worse than anything done to men) its grotesque beyond belief that Western medical institutions are calling for more genital mutilation.

intact

That's why when circumcision is being so questioned now they are afraid.

Yep. When you can't morally square or justify something, the next best thing to seek is validation.

Persuading millions of non-Jews that RIC is A-OK does the trick for them.

Squirrel

Yes, I would also like to knock the "Jews controlling [SOMETHING / EVERYTHING]" meme on the head. It's racist and, more importantly, inaccurate.

While Jewish people are over-represented in some industries - the US entertainment industry being an obvious one, but also the finance industry - it's no different from some other ethnic or religious groups being similarly over-represented in other industries. There's no conspiracy other than common nepotism.

There's way too much to cover here but the reasons for these over-representations are multi-layered but often broadly come from historical restrictions placed upon certain groups. In the case of the Jewish diaspora in many European countries, they were prevented from learning a recognised trade, but were permitted to be money-lenders, shop-keepers, entertainers (particularly vaudeville-type shows), haberdashers and later, tailors, altho' that's often a trade. Plus all the usual menial jobs of course.

When European Jews (along with non-Jews) sought to make a new life in the US in the late 1800s/early 1900s, the combination of skills in entertaining, garment/costume-making, salesmanship plus financial contacts provided the perfect wellspring to get into the entertainment business such as stage shows and "this new film thing".